The following transcript is taken verbatim from Facebook, circa Summer of 2009. Only the names have been slightly altered. I otherwise haven't edited anything, including the grammar and spelling. Even if you wish I had.
Michael [ORIGINAL STATUS POST]
If I see one more dullard holding up a placard comparing President Obama to Hitler and Stalin outside a healthcare town-hall, I'm going to have an aneurysm. (Luckily I have employer provided healthcare.) Our First Amendment protections are rights--not requirements to expose our shockingly untutored opinions and foist them at high volume on others. Thanks for embarrassing yourselves and your nation.
Seraphime, Nancy and 3 others like this.
Joey
Good to hear from you, Michael...I could not agree with you more...keep in mind both sides are dolts!!
Julie
Hang in there Michael. We are all counting on you.
Dianna
Gee I miss you Michael....hope all is well......
Brittany
Can I get an "Amen!"
Shannon
The comparisons have to do with socialist agendas, not the holocaust. I personally don't think Obama nor congress know what's best for me, and since they've run medicare and social security into the ground, I have no faith they can handle health care for all.
Scott
If I'm not mistaken it was Pelosi and other democrat leaders who labeled concerned citizens as "angry mobs" and compared them to nazis. I would also disagree, our 1st amend rights give us the right to say whatever we want no matter how stupid others may view it. I would be saddened to think that you believe that someone who disagrees with Obama and his policies should shut up because others don't agree with thier views.
I would also point out that those comparisons are historically accurate since their are many parallels to what Hitler tried to do with his social agenda and what Obama is trying to do with healthcare ie, his social agenda. I don't believe people are calling Obama Hitler personally, but rather pointing out some historical similarities.
Brittany
I'm sorry but I think it is ridiculous to compare Obama to Hitler or Stalin because one of his policies may resemble one of their policies. That is like comparing Obama to Hitler because they both like ice cream. I can hear it now:
"Well, Hitler liked ice cream, and Obama likes ice cream, therefore Obama is just like Hitler." And if I know Michael as well as I do then I believe he is all for saying whatever it is you want to say, as long as you have researched your facts and have actually done some serious thinking on the subject at hand. When you start throwing out comparisons like the one mentioned above you stand to lose all of your credibility. I am a History major and studied Nazi culture. To say that Obama's policies resemble Hitler's is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard in a long time. Mike doesn't want those who disagree with him or Obama to shut up. He just wants them to actually know what they are talking about so an intelligent discussion can be had.
Brittany
PS: I am also talking about Hitler's social agenda and not the Holocaust.
Scott
Historically speaking if Bismarck had not implemented socialized healthcare, which paved the way for hitler later on, That system allowed Hitler to put into action the atorcities of the holocaust.
Either way I find it hypocritical for the democrats to complain and label when they have been doing this for years with Bush and no one complained.
Yes, they are stupid. However they have that right. And no they don't need to research, becuase the 1st amnd doesn't state you have to research before you speak.
I also didn't see anyone, including the news outlets comcerned with people holding derogitory signs about bush and the war? I guess this attitude only applies to crazy republicans who call Obama Hitler, not those who call bush Hitler? And in all honesty, I believe those people are the fringe. The vast majority of people speaking their minds are average americans who don't want this.
Seraphime
@scott wow.
Brittany
I'd like to know how Bismarck led the way to Hitler and the Holocaust. Seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
Brittany
Lol... and I love the part about no "need for research." That is exactly what is wrong with this country-- allowing people to fester in ignorance.
Seraphime
@brittany i couldn't agree with you more about every point you made, including michael's likely intentions regarding his status line. and esp about the inanity of comparing obama to hitler or stalin based off of a couple of efforts to help society on a large scale.
i, too, have much to say about this particular thread and the comments made here. but this one'll take some time. we'll see if i get the chance tonight. in the meantime, keep up the clarity of thought and speech, michael and brittany. :)
Scott
I was merely pointing out that peole have the right to speak without knowledge. The 1st amend doesn't state that research needs to be done before speech is allowed. I personally agree with you, that more people need to have better knowledge and not be ignorant of things and not act upon emotion and feeling. Had that been the case Obamawould have never been elected. Bismarck set up germany's socialized medicine program. The rest is history.
Dianna
Wow...all historical debates aside...the bottom line in all of this is the right decisions must be made about our nation's healthcare. There is so much uncertainty and possibly even a lack of trust that our healthcare system (and our country)will be moved in the "right" direction. To Shannon's earlier point, our government has run Medicare and ... Social Security into the ground to the point that there may not be anything left to draw from when it's time for all of us to retire. I try to have faith and say a little prayer everyday that it'll all be okay but personally, as an individual and as a parent, it's all a little bit scary for me.........
Dianna
Now I am off to work to help support our economy....I work in retail ya know!
Brittany
Bismarck's socialized health care program in no way led to the Holocaust. That was one man's effort to move a nation to define itself based on what it wasn't rather than what it was. According to Hitler, Germany was not Jewish, Jews were evil, therefore Jews must be forced out. To compare Hitler's flawed ideology of national socialism to anything else is problematic because it is unique unto itself. There are other dictators who have gone down somewhat similar paths but the ideology and intended/unintended outcomes were different. Stalin, Hitler, and other despots may have all been bad men, but that does not make them all similar men.
To compare Obama's programs to those of national socialism is ignorant, childish, and lacking clear historical knowledge and common sense. I weep for America.
Brittany
In addition, had Bismarck not created nationalized health care who's to say that Hitler would not have created it himself to justify his means? He created what he needed in order to carry out his policies.
And to those who are saying it is okay to compare Hitler's social agenda to Obama's because you are not talking about the Holocaust, just his politics, then shame on you. You know that mentioning Hitler or Stalin will conjure up the worst images in the minds of the average uneducated American, who will then associate Obama with the awful atrocities committed by those men. It doesn't matter if you say "Oh, we only meant his social policies, not his racial agenda."
To those who have not studied history, and sadly that is most of today's America, the only image that will appear is the Holocaust. You know better, and stop acting like you don't.
Derek
Just to point something out, being Jewish is a religious choice. Had nothing to do with a race. If we want to really think about things, why has every war been started. RELIGION! You're in a fight of Democrat Vs. every other. It will never end. This is as bad as them holding their sign, except you came in my house.
Marsblack
BC, I couldn't have said it better myself!
I have no problem with people being worried, concerned, skeptical about what is being proposed, I am not so sure myself about what to do next. The issues of health insurance and health care are very complicated and there are many possibilities for change. But the bottom line is something has to change to improve the access of reasonable health coverage to Americans. Having insurance tied to jobs as the main access people have is not good enough.
Having people denied coverage because they are already sick or have a pre-existing condition is not good enough. People going into debt because of medical bills is not good enough. How to resolve it is beyond me other than some way to mandate that health care insurance providers be non-profit to remove profit revenues from the equation.
Brittany
Actually many consider Jews to be a racial/ethnic group. They do not believe it is a choice, to them it is a part of their being. Who are we to decide they are wrong? Judaism is a religion I actually respect, since they do not force their views upon those who are not interested.
Also it is land, not religion,that is usually the cause of wars.
Derek
No one said they were wrong or right. The only race they are is the human race. If it was not a choice I would be Jewish just as my Great Grandfather was. I don't care what others believe in or if they believe in anything. The people with the signs should have thought about other examples, but socialism is socialism no matter how you look at it and that's what they are trying to say that we are coming to.
Seraphime
@brittany lmao! you go, girl! exactly. exactly. exactly.
"To compare Obama's programs to those of national socialism is ignorant, childish, and lacking clear historical knowledge and common sense." <<< this is precisely what i wanted to say.
i so had to crash last night because it was already uber late when i caught this thread, but man, was i itchin' to address so many ludicrously incorrect and historically fallacious statements made here. my fingers were crossed that either you or michael would challenge them and, thank goodness, you did.
Seraphime
yeah, people, this whole notion of obama having "a socialist agenda" has got to stop. the term socialism is getting extensively misused and misappropriated.
1. do not confuse the large fiscal bailouts made to the banks and other captains of industry, initiated by the bush administration, btw, as socialist action.
2. the term "a socialist agenda" is a catch phrase coined by the right to exploit the ghosts of old blind mccarthy-era commie hating that still reside within our brain-washed subconscious. fear not, great peoples of america, the Big Red Bogeyman is not about to seize our country and force everyone into eating rationed rice servings of 3/4 a cup.
3. we already have several programs in place which employ the notion of mass inclusion regardless of means or status and yet those programs do not prevent those who can afford it to have a highly upgraded, deluxe version of whatever lower rung service the poor are accorded. in terms of health care, that some fortuneless bloke will finally have the oppty to go to the dentist does not mean that you will be stripped of your ability to have your pick of a dozen dentists practicing in beverly hills, if you can afford it.
and finally,
4. read up on Socialism before screaming, "the sky is falling!" check your sources, make sure you read the pros as well as the cons. whatever fragments of socialist practice end up in our system are going to be heavily fused with the capitalist incentive method, so it is not as though freedom of choice and the luxury of reward for hard work (or good luck) are anywhere near from being taken from you.
Seraphime
check out this website. he articulates this last point perfectly.
http://shouldveaskedme.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-to-say-to-someone-whos-frightened.html
Seraphime
@shannon & dianna "they've run medicare and social security into the ground. I have no faith they can handle health care for all."
obama's administration has had very little to do with running medicare and social security into the ground. that has been happening for generations and often, though not always, by fiscally conservative administrations who were so against socialized medicine and care for the have-nots, they did everything they could to deplete it. i mean, to say "run into the ground" means to cut funding for, and that's been happening to social security and medicare my whole life - so, for *at least* 37 years and through 6 presidential administrations. it's preposterous to put that on obama's lap. he's only been in office for 7 months.
Seraphime
if universal health care is successfully established, what we would have to worry about are future administrations who are ideologically opposed to the notion. they will be the ones who will start to sieve funding from it unless the populace gains a clear and accurate understanding of what it is and how it will elevate, not denigrate our society.
Seraphime
@derek um, yeah. that point has been made abundantly clear already - that many people are afraid of socialism. what you are not clear on, apparently, is your understanding of socialism, because what is being proposed for universal heath care is not really socialism due to the continuance of personal incentive (the tiered system) and secondly, even if it were, why exactly do you think that would catapult us backward on the evolutionary scale?
@marsblack removing profit revenues from the equation would be ideal, IMO. human life and health should not be tied to profit in any way; that way the only interest at stake is how to improve the physical well-being of the individual.
oh, and excuse me, the weblink i provided exemplifies point 3. perfectly, i meant to say. ;-P
Seraphime
this (link below), for instance, is precisely the sort of madness which must stop. it's creating mass hysteria and knee-jerk reactions, capitalizing on decades worth of conditioning and manipulation (against anything nationally funded) which have been doled out to the masses in big threatening heaps and chunks.
@scott, re obama/hitler, hilter/bush: those of you on the right or however you categorize yourself, are just sore cause bush actually DID resemble hitler with his axis of evil, his unilaterally decided upon wars and obsessive stripping of civil liberties.
oldest political tactic in the book: if you call someone out as loving fried food, to use a silly example, and that person doesn't want the public to know that they really *do* love fried food, easiest defensive maneuver for them to take is to turn the focus around on you and convince the public that it is, in fact, *you* who is at mcdonald's every night, chowing down on greasy mcnuggets. unfort. that tried and true stratagem often works and successfully convinces those who are too lazy to conduct their own thorough research.
and btw, scott, that we have the right, as implied in the first amendment, to speak without knowledge is not something you specifically should be highlighting in your arguments. it reveals your sympathies with ignorance. an avenue you'd do best to leave alone should you want to represent yourself astutely. as for socialized health care being the catalyst for the holocaust - i'll admit that's a level of fear mongering i've yet to encounter before. i'm almost tempted to take your picture for scientific documentation.
Brittany
Seraphime-- Damn, girl, can I get another Amen!!
Scott
Seraphime, I'm sorry, but what you just said proved your arrogance,and what is truely wrong with this country.
You as I would catagorize as the "social elite" consider yourselfs above the average man and thus your opinions or "rantings" as the one true way.
" Seraphime: scott, re obama/hitler, hilter/bush: those of you on the right or however you categorize yourself, are just sore cause bush actually DID resemble hitler with his axis of evil, his unilaterally decided upon wars and obsessive stripping of civil liberties."
Scott
And than this comment, you rail people at townhall meetings for comparing Obama to Hitler and than turn around and hyocritically catagorize Bush in turn. Holy Cow what a move.
And I am to respect your opinion when you pull that kind of crap.
Sorry, to say but I loath people like you. You feel that your opinion is the only one and everyone else with an opposing one needs to shut up. Or at the very least is ignorant and stupid.
Personally I couldn't care less what you think of me, but just remember that your's is not the only viewpoint. also remember that not once did I label you prior to this post.
You have the right to your opinion, however you seem to think that if it isn't how you think it's ok to put down, label or even demean those with opposing viewpoints. WRONG!!!!
I'm pretty sure this is falling on deaf ears, so I've said my piece and I'm done. Have a nice life :)
Seraphime
@scott lmfao! and by social elite, i'm assuming you mean intelligent, well-spoken and supplied with accurate data?
i suggest you stop pulling your socio-political nomenclature off the cracker-jack box and start doing some real thinking of your own.
what you loathe is that i highlighted your extreme irrationality and coming-from-the-planet-mars conjectures in a few concise moves.
i do not suffer fools lightly, it's true, scott. and i do not mince words when it comes to belligerence holding a mega-phone. if you feel ridiculed, perhaps it's because you unrealistically expect to be politely handled when regurgitating hatred, ignorance and non-life affirming intolerance.
you expect the first amendment to protect your right to belch pollution out into your environment without being harshly challenged? think again. of course you're free to speak your smog, scott, just don't be surprised if the level of opposition is on par with your level of entitled insensitivity.
